nasin moku tan telo pi pimeja suwi

Creativity: Poetry, music, comics, etc.
Kreado: Poezio, muziko, bildrakontoj, ktp.
janMato
Posts: 1545
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:21 pm
Location: Takoma Park, MD
Contact:

nasin moku tan telo pi pimeja suwi

Post by janMato »

ni li nasin moku tan telo pi pimeja suwi kepeken telo pimeja. *

nanpa W.
o ko e kiwen pi telo pimeja.
o kepeken e suli pi uta tu.
o pana e ko tawa ilo pi telo pimeja pi ma Italija.
o wan e luka e nena lili pi ilo pi telo pimeja.
o awen.
telo pimeja li kama la kipisi ni li pini.

nanpa T.
o kama lukin e telo walo lete.
o wan e luka e nena lili tawa kon seli.
o kepeken e suli pi poki wan.
o kon telo seli e telo lon telo walo soweli.
o awen.
sike lili pi telo walo li kama la kipisi ni li pini.

nanpa TW.
o seli e pimeja suwi lon poki pi kiwen suno.
o kepeken e seli lili e suli pi luka kipisi TT.
pimeja suwi li kama telo la kipisi ni li pini.

nanpa TT.
o pana e telo pimeja lon poki pi moku telo.
o pane e pimeja sewi tawa poki ni ken.
o pane e sike lili pi telo walo lon anpa ala pi poki ni.
sijelo pona sina li ala ijo suli la o kepeken e ko suwi walo anu ko pi pipi lili.
o awen sona e ni. ko suwi li ike tawa kiwen uta sina.
o awen.
moku e telo lon tenpo ni. moku li kama seli ala taso o awen ala lon tenpo ni.
moku li lete sama kiwen.


* What's the rules for titles, sentence fragments?
Last edited by janMato on Sun Sep 05, 2010 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
jan Ote
Posts: 424
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2009 1:15 am
Location: ma Posuka
Contact:

Re: nasin moku tan telo pi pimeja suwi

Post by jan Ote »

ni li nasin moku tan telo pi pimeja suwi kepeken telo pimeja."This is a recipe for liquid chocolade using cofee"
* "nasin moku" = a way of [making] food, a recipe?
* I do not understand why "tan"?
* pimeja suwi = sweet "darkness"(?). It should be suwi pimeja = dark sweet. By the way, I'm pretty sure that names of colors are adjectives cannot be used as nouns (not "pimeja li pona" but "kule pimeja li pona").

o ko e kiwen pi telo pimeja.
"Powder beans(?) of coffee."
Is "kiwen" a good word here?

o kepeken e suli pi uta tu.
Use big of mouth two/divided? ("take two spoons of the powder"???)

o pana e ko tawa ilo pi telo pimeja pi ma Italija.
"Put the powder into acoffee machine ('for Italian coffee')".

o wan e luka e nena lili pi ilo pi telo pimeja.
"Join a hand and a small bulge of the coffee machine." ("Press a button", but I don't like "wan" here)

o awen.
"Wait."

telo pimeja li kama la kipisi ni li pini.
"When a coffee appears/cames then this cut(?!?) is finished."
kipisi is for "to cut".

o kama lukin e telo walo lete.
"Look for(?) a cold milk." (why not "take"="kama jo"?)

o wan e luka e nena lili tawa kon seli.
"Join a hand and a small bulge to hot air." ("Turn the gas on")
"tawa"?

o kepeken e suli pi poki wan.
"Use big of container one."
"suli" is an adjective. What do you mean by using it as noun? Enlarging?
o kepeken e poki suli. ?

o kon telo seli e telo lon telo walo soweli.
"Make gaseous-liquid-hot (boil) a liquid located(?) milk."
Why "lon"?

sike lili pi telo walo li kama la kipisi ni li pini.
"When small circles of milk appear then..."

o seli e pimeja suwi lon poki pi kiwen suno.
"Warm a chocolade in(?) a container of light stone (metal?)".
"Lon insa"?

o kepeken e seli lili e suli pi luka kipisi TT.
"Use small hot and use enlarging(?) of hand cut(?) four.

pimeja suwi li kama telo la kipisi ni li pini.
"When chocolade becomes liquid then..."

o pana e telo pimeja lon poki pi moku telo.
"Pour a coffe to a container for soups (a pot)."

o pane e pimeja sewi tawa poki ni ken.
panA sUwi pimeja
"ken"?
"Pour chocolade in this pot".

o pane e sike lili pi telo walo lon anpa ala pi poki ni.
"put a small circle(?) of milk on/in the not-bottom(?) of this pot."

sijelo pona sina li ala ijo suli la o kepeken e ko suwi walo anu ko pi pipi lili.
"If/when Your good/wealthy body is not a big tool(?), then use a white sweet powder (sugar) or a powder/semi-liquid of a small insect[s] (honey)."
Why 'lili'? Bees are pipi of normal size.

o awen sona e ni. ko suwi li ike tawa kiwen uta sina.
"Keep in mind" this. Sugar is bad for your teeth. ("ijo uta walo")

moku e telo lon tempo ni. moku li kama seli ala taso o awen ala lon tempo ni.
"Drink a liquid at time this. Food becomes not hot only let(?) not stop at this time."

moku li lete sama kiwen.
Food is cold as stone (ice?).
janKipo
Posts: 3064
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: nasin moku tan telo pi pimeja suwi

Post by janKipo »

It's easier to work with jan Ote on this one, since he caught most of the questions and answers most. But ...
'nasin moku' "eating way" might be diet or table etiquette, "food way" might style or tradition (I use The Flavor-Principle Cookbook a lot). But I read it as "recipe" immediately, it seems to work.

I don't get 'tan' either, Unless it is really "A way to make food from sweet dark liquid using coffee."

I am not sure which way the 'suwi' and the 'pimeja' should line up (though I note that chocolate is naturally not sweet, being mainly an alkaloid, but then is not really dark either until it is roasted).

Of course, 'pimeja' can be a noun, as in When the Dark Comes Rising and such like. tenpo mute la pimeja li ike.

Roasted beans are probably like nuts, 'kili kiwen'

Then we have the problem that tp has no words for standard (nor non-standard, come to that) measures. And this metaphor (or whatever it is) is not transparent. "use the size of two mouths" presumably a pile of ground coffee that size, whatever that size is, tablespoons at a guess (cups seem too big for mouths, teaspoons too small).

Several ways to say "put the coffee into the espresso machine" (note, 'pi ma Italija' probably modifies 'ilo', not 'telo pimeja', but it doesn't make much practical difference).

'wan' is actually a pretty good solution, given the dearth of strike words. Neither 'pilin' nor 'utala' seems markedly better, though the latter does get the push part in. o utala e nena kepeken palisa luka' I do worry about the double direct objedct, since that usually means that we can split into two sentences, which would be nonsense here. On the other hand, 'en' is apparently prohibited in DOs.

'kapisi' in the sense of "section, portion, chapter, step in a process" Seems a natural extension but that is possibly because so many moves in English go like that.

"Find some cold milk" (Shouldn't you have laid out all the ingredients before hand, etc.)

Same problem about double objects. Now I have problems with buttons. I assume we are going to heat the milk, but I don't know on what sort of device. Most of the ones I use have knobs which require turning as much as pushing. But in any case, what we want is to get some heat. Maybe just (to be unspecific about the means) 'o open e seli'. 'kon seli' is unclear at best, misleading at worst (if I used an induction heater, for example). and yes, why 'tawa'?

"use [a quantity of milk] the size of one cup (now an obvious measure, after the last round) 'suli' probably is an Adjective, but used as a noun it means "size, magnitude" just as 'mute' means "quantity, multitude."

I think this one is like ""pour the hot coffee into the milk" but would be hard pressed to say why I think that (mainly because I can't make any sense of it at all by direct reading) Or, maybe it's somehow "heat the liquid " 'o seli e telo' but the rest is obscure -- and there is no pot here to do it in either. "Make the liquid at the milk be hot liquid air (steam? this sound like a really bad idea altogether).

Ah, but this step end when bubbles appear, not going all the way to steam (although bubbles are already a little late; the skin is usually enough).

'lon insa' is better; I would just say 'kepeken' in the hope people know how to use pans.(though we just boiled milk without one).

The disparity between the two usees is annoying "Use extreme caution and a tin of peas" just "heat slowly a quantity of chocolate the size of four cut hands" Now I have no idea again, except that chocolate of this sort ends to come in blocks scored for breaking into squares, and I assume that is what is meant, though how it means that is not clear.

This step ends when the chocolate melts.

Is soup 'telo moku' or 'moku telo' and how would we decide? Anyhow, I assume here this means cups/beakers. 'lon' is questionable. I would go (be fussy) for 'tawa insa'. But then, I might use that as the verb and skip 'pana' altogether.

'kin' but it goes after 'pimeja suwi' not 'poki ni' since the chocolate is the added thing.

Put the milk foam (Ahah! now I see what the muddle up above was about, though I am not sure yet I can reconstruct it aright 'o pana e kon telo seli tawa insa pi teli walo' or some such -- run a jet of steam into the milk) onto the top of the cup (why not 'sewi' or 'lawa'?)

If you are not too fat (I think: sijelo sina li suli ala la" I can't figure out what either the 'pon' nor the 'ijo' or maybe 'ilo' is doing there), then use sugar or honey. Well, some bees are rather large for insects and certainly none are small; maybe 'pipi pona' or pipi suwi' (the modifier relation being as vague as it is).

Nice for "keep in mind"! 'walo uta' is in the Lessons for "teeth"

"Drink it now. It will cool. But don't wait for that. It solidifies." Missing a period or so. I would put the "now" in as 'tenpo ni la' . "wait for that time" is not worked out yet; lon' doesn't seem plausible, since static.

Titles can be (at least) any legitimate structure.
User avatar
jan Ote
Posts: 424
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2009 1:15 am
Location: ma Posuka
Contact:

Re: nasin moku tan telo pi pimeja suwi

Post by jan Ote »

jan Ote wrote:o wan e luka e nena lili pi ilo pi telo pimeja.
"Join a hand and a small bulge of the coffee machine." ("Press a button", but I don't like "wan" here)
janKipo wrote:'wan' is actually a pretty good solution, given the dearth of strike words. Neither 'pilin' nor 'utala' seems markedly better, though the latter does get the push part in.
The point is that the sentence is about turning the machine on, making it to start working, so it can be expressed in a clearer way:
o kama e ni: ilo pi telo pimeja li pali.
or even
o open e ilo pi telo pimeja
(tp: 'open' means EN: 'to open', but also 'to turn on'. Just like here:
janKipo wrote:I assume we are going to heat the milk, but I don't know on what sort of device. Most of the ones I use have knobs which require turning as much as pushing. But in any case, what we want is to get some heat. Maybe just (to be unspecific about the means) 'o open e seli'.
The milk problem is still a puzzle for me. Anyway it's a unique text, the first tp recipe. I would be glad to see the revised version with some janMato comments. And publish the text it on my site.
janMato
Posts: 1545
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:21 pm
Location: Takoma Park, MD
Contact:

Re: nasin moku tan telo pi pimeja suwi

Post by janMato »

New improved:
-tan until I have a better construction for "for the goal of", other than "pi"
-"If your health is of no matter, then add sugar" My version fails to express "matter of concern"
-I'm using suli for "size"/"measure". "mute" seems possible. "o kepeken e mute pi poka luka", use a handful
-"o open", "o kama e ni: ilo li pali" for push a button are all equally good imho, so I didn't change it.
-I think all colors should be usable as nouns-- the classic POS rules for colors was/is a mistake. Having some colors act as nouns but not other is gratuitious complexity. Never the less I switched order
because it improves parallelism and suwi has stronger central meaning of candy, where pimeja is pretty vague.
-That two quite competent toki ponists weren't sure what to make of "o kon telo seli" prove my point that the intedend meaning of the words following the verb are still fuzzy. I had in mind "to steam", ie. a verb with 2 modifiers, a sort of action with two salient characteristics. "telo la seli la o kon" doesn't seem to help, nor "o kon pi telo seli"

ni li nasin moku tan telo pi suwi pimeja kepeken telo pimeja.

nanpa W.
o ko e kiwen lili pi telo pimeja.
o kepeken e suli pi uta tu.
o pana e ko tawa ilo pi telo pimeja pi ma Italija.
o wan e luka e nena lili pi ilo pi telo pimeja.
o awen.
telo pimeja li kama la kipisi ni li pini.

nanpa T.
o kama jo e telo walo lete.
o wan e luka e nena lili tawa kon seli.
o kepeken e suli pi poki wan.
o kon telo seli e telo lon telo walo soweli.
o awen.
sike lili pi telo walo li kama la kipisi ni li pini.

nanpa TW.
o seli e suwi pimeja lon insa poki pi kiwen suno.
o kepeken e seli lili e suli kipisi pi palisa luka TT.
pimeja suwi li kama telo la kipisi ni li pini.

nanpa TT.
o pana e telo pimeja lon poki pi moku telo.
o pane e pimeja sewi tawa poki ni kin.
o pane e sike lili pi telo walo lon sewi pi poki ni.
sijelo pona sina li ala ijo suli la o kepeken e ko suwi walo anu ko pi pipi pi pana suwi.
o awen sona e ni. ko suwi li ike tawa walo uta sina.
o awen.
moku e telo lon tempo ni. moku li kama seli ala taso o awen ala lon tempo ni.
awen mute la moku li lete sama kiwen.
tempo ni la sina ken moku e moku pini.
Last edited by janMato on Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:50 am, edited 3 times in total.
janKipo
Posts: 3064
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: nasin moku tan telo pi pimeja suwi

Post by janKipo »

"for the goal of" looks like 'tawa' to me, and you know how I hate using 'tawa'.
'suli' iw better for "size", 'mute' seems to be "quantity."
So far as I can tell, all colors serve as nouns, though I think the are all Adjectives.
Being a cook, my immediate thoughts for 'suwi pimeja' are, in order, caramel. molasses, and then chocolate. (But I am a licorice man myself).
The problem -- aside from not being clear about what was going on: missing pots and spouts and whatnot -- is the uncertainty what 'kon' means as a verb. What verb did you mean to have two modifiers? As noted, I think 'kon' should mean "breathe" and a case can certainly be made for its meaning both "blow" and "sniff' but there is no very definitive rule yet. I think something lik 'pana e telo kon seli' (order uncertain and avoiding "hot holy water" somehow)'lon insa telo walo' or 'seli e tel walo kepeken e teloXkon seli' is just clearer until 'kon' as verb settles down.
Your measures are still obscure as is that they re measures, even with 'suli' "Use a size of two mouths" or even "two tablespoons" isn't clear : a what the size of two whatevers? portion of coffee, it turns out but doesn't say.
janMato
Posts: 1545
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:21 pm
Location: Takoma Park, MD
Contact:

Re: nasin moku tan telo pi pimeja suwi

Post by janMato »

jan Ote wrote:Anyway it's a unique text, the first tp recipe. I would be glad to see the revised version with some janMato comments.
I only wish I was first, jan pi ma Kanse beat me to the first toki pona cooking recipe.
jan Ote wrote:And publish the text it on my site.
Please do! toki pona does seem suited for a very specific style of cooking--- cooking without measures.
User avatar
jan Josan
Posts: 326
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 12:41 pm
Location: ma tomo Nujoka
Contact:

Re: nasin moku tan telo pi pimeja suwi

Post by jan Josan »

if the measurements made sense comparitively, (suli pi poki luka/suli pi poki uta/ suli pi poki ...-or- suli luka, suli uta, ...) then maybe we could argue them out without worrying which was exactly a cup/ Tbsp / tsp etc) (I like mouth as a measurement btw)

just a few subjective comments on the last version:

'ni li nasin moku tan telo pi suwi pimeja kepeken telo pimeja.'
I get 'recipe' but I want to see pali in there for make/do. maybe 'nasin pali pi moku/telo pi pimeja suwi'...
I too have a problem w/ 'tan' = 'for the goal of' -- i feel this is opposite 'origin', (If anything I would say 'nasin ni li tan wile moku' -this recipe comes from wanting to eat :) ) which leaves us with tawa again...

If you use kipisi as a division/chapter within the sections, maybe the underlined titles should also be kipisi nanpa W: etc.

"o pana e ko tawa ilo pi telo pimeja pi ma Italija." could this be "...ilo Italija pi telo pimeja"?

"o kon telo seli e telo lon telo walo soweli." I actually got 'air-water-heat' as steam but I was tripped up by soweli. Why mention the cow now, if we already know it's milk? I'm of the mind that if the verb is complex, make the DOs/IOs as simple as possible to help direct the reader. In fact, why the extra 'e telo' ? what about 'o kon telo seli e telo walo' ?

"o pane e pimeja sewi tawa poki ni ken." I think you mean kin?

"o pane e sike lili pi telo walo lon anpa ala pi poki ni."
'put a small circle(?) of milk on/in the not-bottom(?) of this pot.' x2
-->very confused by this line, but also left hankering for a cup of cocoa...
janMato
Posts: 1545
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:21 pm
Location: Takoma Park, MD
Contact:

Re: nasin moku tan telo pi pimeja suwi

Post by janMato »

jan Josan wrote:"o pane e sike lili pi telo walo lon anpa ala pi poki ni."
-->very confused by this line, but also left hankering for a cup of cocoa...
"lon anpa ala"

at the un-buttom, i.e. on top.

speaking of this pattern-- it looks okay because of the "lon", but had this been:

"kepeken ala ijo"
without (using) something

I'd wonder if it is legal for "ala" to modify a preposition. We aren't sure if prepositions are an open lexical category, if preps can be two words, etc.
User avatar
jan Ote
Posts: 424
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2009 1:15 am
Location: ma Posuka
Contact:

Re: nasin moku tan telo pi pimeja suwi

Post by jan Ote »

janMato wrote:
jan Josan wrote:"o pane e sike lili pi telo walo lon anpa ala pi poki ni."
-->very confused by this line, but also left hankering for a cup of cocoa...
"lon anpa ala"

at the un-buttom, i.e. on top.
"lon sewi pi poki ni"
[i]nimi ali[/i] wrote:sewi -- high, up, above, top, over, on
Post Reply