ESUN: sina wile e ilo nasa tawa palisa pi pali ala?

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janMato
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ESUN: sina wile e ilo nasa tawa palisa pi pali ala?

Post by janMato »

lon ni li lipu mute tawa esun pi ilo nasa. taso ni li sitelen ala kepeken toki pona. mi pona e ni.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

sina wile ala wile e ilo nasa tawa palisa pi pali ala? mi esun e ilo nasa tawa mani lili. mi pilin e ni: ilo nasa li pali pona.

(taso mi sona ala. ilo nasa li pali tawa sina la toki e ni tawa mi. pona?)

palisa sina li pali ala la sina wile kepeken e ilo nasa. tempo kama la tu la sina jo e meli pona mute.

o lukin!

tempo mute la ilo nasa li pali ante.
- ken la palisa sina li anpa li weka.
- ken la sina moli
- ken la sina li anpa e mani ale sina
- ken la linja lawa sina li anpa
- ken la tempo kama la sina jo e kon ike pi uta sinpin
- ken la jan pona ale li weka e sina
- ken la sina kama jo e palisa pi pipi akesi lili. taso ni li tawa nanpa lili pi jan mute.

pona,

o esun e ilo nasa lili mute o pana ala e pilin tawa ijo ike ken.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Last edited by janMato on Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:13 pm, edited 6 times in total.
janKipo
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Re: ESUN: sina wile e ijo nasa tawa palisa pi pali ala?

Post by janKipo »

janMato wrote:lon ni li lipu mute tawa esun pi ijo nasa. taso ni li sitelen ala kepeken toki pona. mi pona e ni.
This place is many leaves for trade in odd things. But this doesn't write in tp. I correct that.
sina wile e ijo nasa tawa palisa pi pali ala? mi esun e ijo nasa tawa mani lili. mi pilin e ni: ijo nasa li pali pona.
You want odd things for your non-functioning stick. [Note: not a question] I exchange an odd thing for little money. I think that the odd thing works.
(taso mi sona ala. ijo nasa li pali tawa sina la toki e ni tawa mi. pona?)
(But I don't know. If the odd thing works for you, ... tells this to me. Good! [nq]
palisa sina li pali ala la sina wile kepeken e ijo nasa. tempo kama la tu la sina jo e meli pona mute.
If your stick does not work, you need to use the odd thing. In the future, secondly, you will have many good females [not necessarily human or even apes]
o lukin!
Look:
tempo mute la ijo nasa li pali ante.
Often, the odd thing works differently.
- ken la palisa sina li anpa.
Maybe your stick falls down
- ken la sina moli
Maybe you are dead
- ken la sina li anpa e mani ale sina
Maybe you drop all your money
- ken la linja lawa sina li anpa
Maybe your hair falls down.
- ken la tempo kama la sina jo e kon ike pi uta sinpin
Maybe you will have bad breath
- ken la jan pona ale li weka sina
Maybe all friends are afar youly[?]
- ken la sina kama jo e palisa pi pipi akesi lili. taso ni li tawa nanpa lili pi jan mute.
Maybe you get the stick of a little ugly insect. But this goes to a small number of many people [?]
pona,
Good!
o esun e ijo nasa lili mute o pana ala e pilin tawa ijo ike ken.
Exchange many little odd things. Don't give a thought to possible bad things.

I take this is a protest against the number of crapola ads that have turned up on this site lately and have not been cut out or off by the Master. Right on, but the tp is odd occasionally, as the trat above tries to point out.
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Re: ESUN: sina wile e [b]ilo nasa[/b] tawa palisa pi pali ala?

Post by janMato »

Fixes in bold. ilo nasa is just as hard to remember as ijo nasa. Worse, it extends poorly outside of euphorics.

Maybe there should be a synonym or two for "drug/medicine".

kiwen lili. Pebble, pill.
kiwen lili pi kule walo. White pebble, pill.
kiwen lili tawa sijelo ike. pebble for the sick body. (Although this is recursive and will need to "inflect" when used in nominative)

ilo sijelo pona. Body repair tool.

? taso ni li tawa nanpa lili pi jan mute. This only happens to a few people.

I've no idea how to say "happens/occurs"

Maybe "lon"?

? taso ni li lon tawa nanpa lili pi jan mute.

Maybe a different construction

taso nanpa lili pi jan mute li jo e ike ni.
janKipo
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Re: ESUN: sina wile e ilo nasa tawa palisa pi pali ala?

Post by janKipo »

Oh, a tool for my tool. tooL, obJect.
Yeah "drug" does seem to have been used in a rather limited way here. I like kiwen lili, kiwen lili walo, kiwen lili pi pona sijelo, etc. though drugs go beyond pills and medicine beyond drugs. ilo pi pona sijelo probably does it totally (a good prosthesis seem a little too specific)
ni li kama tawa jan pi lili mute taso (more or less).
kama
No
But this is correct /exists for only small numbers of many people.
Mebbe.

My stick falls down and goes away? Weirder and weirder.
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jan Josan
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Re: ESUN: sina wile e [b]ilo nasa[/b] tawa palisa pi pali ala?

Post by jan Josan »

janMato wrote: Maybe there should be a synonym or two for "drug/medicine".
I agree that if we want a catch-all term for medicine it shouldn't be a 'kiwen' since it's physical appearance seems secondary. I'm wondering if namako could be used, as most spices have a traditional ayurvedic application:
namako pi sijelo pona - healthy-body spice - healing medicine
namako pi lape pona - good-sleep spice - sleeping 'aid' - this is the roughest definition I can think of since namako has the definition of "stimulating". Then again, probably the same applies for the English word "drug".
ohter suggestion -- ko pi akesi linja
janMato wrote: taso ni li tawa nanpa lili pi jan mute. This only happens to a few people.

I've no idea how to say "happens/occurs"

Maybe "lon"?

? taso ni li lon tawa nanpa lili pi jan mute.

Maybe a different construction

taso nanpa lili pi jan mute li jo e ike ni.
Maybe we ken do the traditional toki pona splits here:

jan mute li pona e palisa ona kepeken ilo nasa. taso jan ante pi kulupu lili li kama jo e ijo ante:
-ken la palisa sina li weka.....


Good job by the way! I read the edited version before jan Kipo's translation/suggestions and I think I got it all except for two lili things:
- ken la jan pona ale li weka e sina
Is this "all good people", or "all your friends" ( jan pona sina ale) as jan Kipo wrote?
mi esun e ilo nasa tawa mani lili
As jan Kipo often says-- I hope tawa isn't the answer. I've always loved the toki pona distinction that we 'toki kepeken toki X". I hope we can find something equal for "marketing X for Y". I guess the most simple parallel would be "sina ken kama jo e X lon esun kepeken Y" (if we're ok with this 3-word modal). This is actively buying but passively selling. Going with what's on the wiki so far: "mi pana lon esun e X li kama lon esun e Y." but now were into e's after prepositions and loosing causality. I've also pondered using "mi esun e X en Y" (I am exchanging X and Y) which would render your sentence "mi esun e ilo nasa en mani lili" but this would kill any chance to sell two things. With your love of 'pu' maybe I should throw in "mi esun e ilo nasa pu mani lili" :)
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Re: ESUN: sina wile e ilo nasa tawa palisa pi pali ala?

Post by janKipo »

I'd like a different idiom too, but 'tawa' as "for" has a history, although I thought it was a different "for" I don't much like the 'en' solution, because just how 'en' and 'anu' work is not very clear yet (and there is the problem you note). And, please, no kpore ideas about 'pu'! (I now hope it is another kinkajou).
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Re: ESUN: sina wile e [b]ilo nasa[/b] tawa palisa pi pali ala?

Post by janMato »

jan Josan wrote:namako pi sijelo pona
pona! ni li pona tawa mi.
jan Josan wrote:With your love of 'pu' maybe I should throw in "mi esun e ilo nasa pu mani lili" :)
a a a! Actually, that would mean "I sell the crazy tools of limited monetizing (as in monetizing the federal debt?)"

A better example (regard less of the merits of the idea) would be

mi esun e kiwen lili pu pona e palisa meji.
I sell pills that fix the pecker.
I sell the little stones that repair the male stick.
I sell stones, repairing the male stick. (There--a comma--per the french wikipedia.)

Re: "en"

I thought "en" could only be used in the pre-li phrase, i.e. it chains together nominatives.
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jan Josan
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Re: ESUN: sina wile e ilo nasa tawa palisa pi pali ala?

Post by jan Josan »

janKipo wrote:I'd like a different idiom too, but 'tawa' as "for" has a history, although I thought it was a different "for" I don't much like the 'en' solution, because just how 'en' and 'anu' work is not very clear yet (and there is the problem you note).
I wouldn't have a problem with 'tawa' except I would imagine it would be used this way "mi esun e ijo tawa jan pona mi" (I sell something to my friend). But this leaves "sina pana e Y la, mi pana e X lon esun." for exchange. And then (lon esun) becomes unnecessary (sina pana e Y tawa mi la, mi pana e X tawa sina ). I'm mostly upset by having a good noun for 'exchange' which goes beyond 'mani' but doesn't do anything when it comes to the verb.
janKipo wrote: And, please, no kpore ideas about 'pu'! (I now hope it is another kinkajou).
kinkaju pu soweli seme? :? :twisted:

jan Mato wrote:Re: "en"

I thought "en" could only be used in the pre-li phrase, i.e. it chains together nominatives.
Yeah, why exactly, can't 'en' be used for a direct object? Just when I thought the whole 'en' idea was crap, I'm suddenly realizing:
allow 'en' in the DO (which so far I've thought made perfect sense) and "mi esun e X en Y" means "I sell X and Y"
-but-
with the rule that it only applies to head noun conjunctions,
"mi esun e X e Y" for "I sell X and Y" (so far copacetic)
"X en Y li esun mi" (horrifying maybe, but grammatically correct and possibly interpreted as "my exchange" ie "my (terms of) exchange"
-or- "mi esun e X en Y" new meaning unambiguously -for-
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Re: ESUN: sina wile e ilo nasa tawa palisa pi pali ala?

Post by janMato »

jan Josan wrote:
jan Mato wrote:Re: "en"

I thought "en" could only be used in the pre-li phrase, i.e. it chains together nominatives.
Yeah, why exactly, can't 'en' be used for a direct object? Just when I thought the whole 'en' idea was crap, I'm suddenly realizing:
allow 'en' in the DO (which so far I've thought made perfect sense) and "mi esun e X en Y" means "I sell X and Y"
-but-
with the rule that it only applies to head noun conjunctions,
"mi esun e X e Y" for "I sell X and Y" (so far copacetic)
-or- "mi esun e X en Y" new meaning unambiguously -for-
"en" as a sort of preposition or indirect object would definitely be a community innovation. I have to read up on that. Selling and exchanging seems like one of those 3 argument verbs, like "to give". The verb "to give" naturally seems to call out for 3 participants (the giver, gift and recipient). I'm reading about lojban that treats these like algebraic functions f(x1,x2,x3), which seems wickedly difficult compared to prepositional phrases or case markers. I figure there would be a similar problem with the verb "li unpa pi jan tu wan" would seem to involve a lot of arguments (3 actors, 3 "gifts", 3 recipients).

Sonja's wiki's talk page for esun says: "transitive verb? = to try to buy, sell or trade tawa or tan indicates whether you’re buying or selling"

mi esun tawa moku tan mani. (or the reverse, I'm not sure which is the goal)
I sell food, buy money. I exchange food for money.
jan Josan wrote:"X en Y li esun mi" (horrifying maybe, but grammatically correct and possibly interpreted as "my exchange" ie "my (terms of) exchange"
I like it but it still is ambiguous as to if you are getting both Y and X, giving both X and Y or exchanging X for Y. If one of them is "money" and by context it clear you are a buyer, then it is clear what direction the exchange is. Barter wouldn't be clear at all.

Here is a passive version as well:
moku en mani li esun kepeken mi.
Food and money are exchanged (by means of) me.
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Re: ESUN: sina wile e ilo nasa tawa palisa pi pali ala?

Post by janKipo »

'esun' seems to need some work (surprise!). As a noun it means "market place, market, store" and so on. As vi it means to engage in business, without specific role, apparently. As vt it means to engage in trade of some commodity, the DO. 'mi esun e pan' "I trade in bread." So, I start either with bread or without, and I end (if successful) in the opposite situation. If I have bread, then I send it out toward something else, which is coming in, 'tawa mani', say. If I don't have bread, then I pull it in from something else, which is going out, apparently, 'tan mani' So, I sell it to or for money, and buy it from, by means of, money. I'm not sure I have that right at all, but it seems it must be so, even if it is hard to regularize.

For the rest, 'en' in DO position seems only possible when it is for compounds (flour and water mixture, not flour and then again water), otherwise you use the repeated 'e'. Ands, of course, exchanges might make just such a compound item: a money - bread exchange, not first money, then bread.

Hopefully, the word will come down.
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