esun kepeken toki pona

Creativity: Poetry, music, comics, etc.
Kreado: Poezio, muziko, bildrakontoj, ktp.
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jan Josan
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Re: esun kepeken toki pona

Postby jan Josan » Mon Dec 14, 2009 9:42 pm

pona a! tenpo pimeja la mi open e pali pi sitelen suwi. mi tu li awen e lipu lawa pi esun kama. mi ante lili lon lipu ni: mi weka e ike Nampa li pana e nimi nanpa. o lukin lon anpa kin. mi pana e namako.

mi pana e sona pi nasin tawa tomo mi li pana lipu esun mi, kepeken ilo toki pi jan tu taso.

mi sitelen kepeken e nimi ni:

lipu lawa pi esun kama

jan Mato li jan pi wile jo. jan josan li jan pali. jan pi wile jo en jan pali li wile e esun.

nanpa wan la, jan pi wile jo en jan pali li sitelen e lipu lawa pi esun kama.

nanpa tu la, lipu lawa pi esun kama li pona tawa ona tu la, jan pali li pali e sitelen. sitelen ni li kepeken e toki sama toki pi lipu lawa pi esun kama. jan pali li pali e sitelen tu. sitelen tu li sama.

nanpa tu wan la, jan pali li pana e sitelen tu tawa jan pi wile jo.

nanpa tu tu la, jan pi wile jo li pana e linja nimi ona lon sitelen nampa wan en sitelen nampa tu. jan pi wile jo li awen jo e sitelen nampa wan. jan pi wile jo li pana e sitelen nampa tu tawa jan pali, li pana e mani Mewika pi nanmpa ale tawa jan pali.

nanpa luka la, jan kama jo li jo e sitelen nanpa wan. jan pali li jo e sitelen nanpa tu li jo e mani. ale li pona.

namako: jan pi wile jo li pana e lipu toki kepeken nimi nanpa mute mute mute (mute anu weka) kepeken toki pona la, jan pali li sitelen e sitelen namako kepeken toki ni.

jan pi wile jo: __________________
jan Mato

jan pali: __________________
jan Josan

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Re: esun kepeken toki pona

Postby janKipo » Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:05 pm

jan Josan wrote:pona a! tenpo pimeja la mi open e pali pi sitelen suwi.

Admittedly not confirmed but, plausible: 'open pali e sitelen suwi' (why 'suwi'?)
mi tu li awen e lipu lawa pi esun kama. mi ante lili lon lipu ni: mi weka e ike Nampa li pana e nimi nanpa. o lukin lon anpa kin. mi pana e namako.

mi pana e sona pi nasin tawa tomo mi li pana E lipu esun mi, kepeken ilo toki pi jan tu taso.

mi sitelen kepeken e nimi ni:

lipu lawa pi esun kama

jan Mato li jan pi wile jo. jan josan li jan pali. jan pi wile jo en jan pali li wile e esun.

nanpa wan la, jan pi wile jo en jan pali li sitelen e lipu lawa pi esun kama.

nanpa tu la, lipu lawa pi esun kama li pona tawa ona tu la, jan pali li pali e sitelen. sitelen ni li kepeken e toki sama toki pi lipu lawa pi esun kama. jan pali li pali e sitelen tu. sitelen tu li sama.

nanpa tu wan la, jan pali li pana e sitelen tu tawa jan pi wile jo.

nanpa tu tu la, jan pi wile jo li pana e linja nimi ona lon sitelen nampa wan en sitelen nampa tu. jan pi wile jo li awen jo e sitelen nampa wan. jan pi wile jo li pana e sitelen nampa tu tawa jan pali, li pana e mani Mewika pi nanmpa ale tawa jan pali.

nanpa luka la, jan kama jo li jo e sitelen nanpa wan. jan pali li jo e sitelen nanpa tu li jo e mani. ale li pona.

namako: jan pi wile jo li pana e lipu toki kepeken nimi nanpa mute mute mute (mute anu weka) kepeken toki pona la, jan pali li sitelen e sitelen namako kepeken toki ni.

In this usage, I think it has to be 'pi nanpa' since it is count, not order. Yeah, we need a word for the "approximately" "about," too.

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Re: esun kepeken toki pona

Postby jan Josan » Tue Dec 15, 2009 5:05 pm

janKipo wrote:Admittedly not confirmed but, plausible: 'open pali e sitelen suwi' (why 'suwi'?)

Perhaps it is time to decide what to call those drawings. I've used suwi so far because it doesn't seem presumptuous while still distinguishing them from other heiroglyphic toki pona scripts. As jan Mato pointed out it works as an obvoius idiom. Perhaps not the best way to describe them though. I've also thought of sitelen sike (for bubble drawings) or sitelen poki, in reference to the contianer system that they use. Any suggestions?

janKipo wrote:
namako: jan pi wile jo li pana e lipu toki kepeken nimi nanpa mute mute mute (mute anu weka) kepeken toki pona la, jan pali li sitelen e sitelen namako kepeken toki ni.

In this usage, I think it has to be 'pi nanpa' since it is count, not order. Yeah, we need a word for the "approximately" "about," too.

I'm not sure I understand: lipu toki pi nimi nanpa mute... or lipu toki kepeken nimi pi nanpa mute...

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Re: esun kepeken toki pona

Postby janMato » Tue Dec 15, 2009 5:49 pm

jan Josan wrote:Perhaps it is time to decide what to call those drawings. I've used suwi so far because it doesn't seem presumptuous while still distinguishing them from other heiroglyphic toki pona scripts. As jan Mato pointed out it works as an obvoius idiom. Perhaps not the best way to describe them though. I've also thought of sitelen sike (for bubble drawings) or sitelen poki, in reference to the contianer system that they use. Any suggestions?


Eponyms
sitelen pi jan Maja - Mayan writing
sitelen pi jan Josan - Josan's script

Loan words, with and without transliteration
sitelen pi nimi Inli "Hieroglyph" / jiwowip

Etymology of Foreign words
sitelen nimi kiwen - stony word pictures, petroglyphs

Salient characteristic(s)
sitelen pi nimi linja - script
sitelen pi linja poka - boxed script
sitelen pi nimi oko - visible words. Writing.
sitelen pi kalama lili - phonetic writing, syllable writing. Unfortunately, I havent' figured out how to deal with scales in tp (small, medium, large, extra large) or (phoneme, syllable, word, sentence, paragraph, page)

Salient head noun only (Jan Pije Style)
sitelen (assume there is enough para-linguistic evidence for comprehension)

Idiom with or without a "just-so" story to explain, maybe with or without a salient head noun
sitelen suwi - sweet pictures (word play on sitelen sewi)
sitelen akesi - monstrous pictures (on account of a few creatures with eyes and teeth in the syllabary)
sitelen akesi pi nimi oko - monstrous pictures of the visible word
sitelen pi moku mute - well fed pictures. Chubby letters.
awen luka pi soweli lili - remainders of feet of little animals. Foot prints.

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Re: esun kepeken toki pona

Postby janKipo » Wed Dec 16, 2009 12:23 pm

"Hieroglyph" has always struck me as an odd word for a genus of scripts, since it means "priests' carvings" or so and does nothing for a description of what is going on linguistically or orthographically. To move from that to "holy/sacred/spiritual writing" seems even more odd -- though quite in line with the late Renaissance fate of Egyptian inscriptions. And, of course, "picture writing" doesn't quite capture this (or any other) system well, since few are pictures of anything and those are often used for other than representing what they picture. "Ideographs" has the same problems. jan Mato seems to have covered most of the territory nicely after that (although, of course, "petroglyph" doesn't apply either). 'lukin; might be better than 'oko' for "visible/visual"
I kinda like 'sitelen sitelen'; however you parse it, it makes appropriate sense.

(roughy, we have -- in scientific contexts -- kalama (sound/phone), kalama sona/toki (phoneme), kalama lili (syllable -- I'm not sure why this break), nimi (word), 'kulupu nimi (phrase -- at least word string).. kulupu nimi pini (sentence -- tp doesn't have clauses other than sentences, so there is no separate word for "clause").

'nimi nanpa mute' means "the manieth word" -- i.e., one far along in some order (beyond second, in tp), 'nimi pi nanpa mute' directly means "word of many numbers" but that is capable of being read (given permission to do so) as "many words," a way to sneak large numbers into tp, eventually. I'm not sure I think this is the best way to do it, but itis possible. Of course, the direct way (given we have the number words to do it) is just 'nimi mute,' without 'nanpa,' and that seems the best advice here, since 'mute' is apparently being used in the unfortunate Sonja concession sense of some precise larger number (score? I forget).

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jan Josan
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Re: esun kepeken toki pona

Postby jan Josan » Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:23 pm

janKipo wrote:I kinda like 'sitelen sitelen'; however you parse it, it makes appropriate sense.

This is nice, in that it would could allow:
sitelen toki - which would include any visual system based on language (alphabets, hieroglyphs, character sets, etc.)
sitelen oko - visual arts -- drawing and painting
(And not to push it too far, but similar devisions for picto-phonetic, indicative, associative, etc. may be possible)


janKipo wrote:'nimi nanpa mute' means "the manieth word" -- i.e., one far along in some order (beyond second, in tp), 'nimi pi nanpa mute' directly means "word of many numbers" but that is capable of being read (given permission to do so) as "many words," a way to sneak large numbers into tp, eventually. I'm not sure I think this is the best way to do it, but itis possible. Of course, the direct way (given we have the number words to do it) is just 'nimi mute,' without 'nanpa,' and that seems the best advice here, since 'mute' is apparently being used in the unfortunate Sonja concession sense of some precise larger number (score? I forget).

Yes, now I see what a slippery slope these non-recommended numbers are.


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